Dudes Loopin After Sosua?

[stinqu]

For older guys DR makes perfect sense if you keep it simple, "Pay as you go" plan! No commitments to any chica, let them know up front, "it is what it is", "es lo que es", they will understand completely.

[Travelguy90]

Age matters but i introduced my little brother when he was around 25, I started at 26. Honestly it’s cost benefits. 2-3 American dates is the cost of a plane ticket round trip. A month going out may run you over what an entire trip would be. Granted he stills gets girls living in a major city but he admits mongering is just more practical for the budget and he’s rather be abstinent while in America if chicks are requiring too much effort and time. If they throwing the box he definitely will catch it. He’d even date down from his normal standards but money is getting tight so he not trying to waste money on something not guaranteed when you rent goes from under $800 to over $1500 monthly due to moving but the income not being guaranteed like once before. He not prioritizing social media, just lay up with a novia who wants to get paid 1-2x and let him get unlimited access to the toto because she thinks he’s cute and enjoys his company. She don’t got to be a dime just above a 6.5, kind and not begging 24/7.

I do have a buddy who does the watching videos 24/7. I thought it was obsessive too but he had some really cool moment like “this your bitch, she negotiated in kreyol to suck dick, she don’t even know she’s on camera” shit had me laughing my ass off. He is not going back to the su anytime soon opting to monger elsewhere. Not sure if he’s still watching pudo(he actually knows the guy) or if he’s following other channels now.

[stinqu]

Dude says, "Man F these hoes imma bout to be in the Su next month." Point being, cant make the su or the hobby your everything, its an extra curricular and dude hadn't had enough experience to make that connection.

If you ain't getting real rubberless box at home b4 Sosua, then Sosua ain't gonna help, no matter the age.  If you ain't loopin, you probably a Western Union novio or one of them dudes spends all his money for mongering trips and doesn't save or invest or think of anything other than his next trip.

Exactly, young dudes should not be going to Sosua. Back in the day most younger guys I saw there were US servicemen on leave and most were 30-40'S year old (senior ratings and NCO'S )  a few backpackers and surfers on their way to Cabarete.

[stinqu]

Travelguy, I had no idea dating was that expensive now. I stopped because attractive women, even 10 yrs. younger than me were hard to find, I was in much better shape at 55 than I was at 35(dad bod). That's when I found Cuba Dave, have enjoyed the last 13 years since then, have enough bank for 13 more, jajajajaj, god willing.

[Travelguy90]

Travelguy, I had no idea dating was that expensive now. I stopped because attractive women, even 10 yrs. younger than me were hard to find, I was in much better shape at 55 than I was at 35(dad bod). That's when I found Cuba Dave, have enjoyed the last 13 years since then, have enough bank for 13 more, jajajajaj, god willing.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/01/lifestyle/how-much-should-you-spend-on-a-date-heres-what-the-research-says/amp/

The average date of you google it says $128 is about a date night, chicks say $170 is fair, dudes be assume $220, and they average person going of 6 dates and spending about $3000 a year dating out? Them numbers suck when you think of what you might have sitting across from you two, back teeth, a pudge gut forming, you do but don’t like her body, she lives too far for practical visits considering your current financial situation as you have money but want to pay off debt not splurge chasing pussy.

You can literally go to mongering internationally 7 times a year for how we long with $200 trips tickets and have another $1600 left over if you cut out domestic dating. I think a lot of people underestimate younger guy’s ability to do math because of the loudmouth attention seekers.

Pessimism or living in the real world of bills instead of how others judge your outlook is a thing. Some dudes just don’t want to waste $3000 or possibly more annually on options they settling for because people saying get your game up like the numbers won’t be 600$ even if you go on $50 dates and still get no Ass because you like fines and it comes with the territory the better the chick looks. So now you doing the math saying $100-200 chasing a dime, she not a trick but still gonna run my pockets, I might have to get a soup, if she wants something $27+ to start with(that’s a chic in Latin America if you good at negotiating) or spending 30-120 on something you settling for just to hit something, you can trick domestically, or just say f--k it I’m going overseas. I been did that math and have a lot to show for it. If I wasted $3000 yearly dating without guarantee of Ass, and found out about tricking I’d think I been cheated. I was 26 mad at money decisions I made at 20 like buying a vip booth to skip a line to talk with a socialite just to show I could do it because I had the disposable income. I still get women in America but it’s not cheap at all, you spending $50 if you dating down and settling. Not expensive but shit adds up and you have bills so why waste money on something not guaranteed? Up to the individual to make the decision so I don’t judge

[stinqu]

After reading that I feel better about Sosua, the average date in the US is $189 with no promise of sex. It's no wonder young guys are over paying chicas. If they knew the market their dealing in $200 would get them 2 days with a sexy ass 6-7.

[elCampo]

He need local hoes
Or therapy.

Those Sosua trips ruin you for local hoes.

Facts, lol. 💯😆

That’s why I advise against young boys getting into the game too early. The game changes you, it f--ks with your mental and your entire outlook on relationships & dating. If you’re not grounded before you get into the game, that shit will ruin you.

I advise the same

He need local hoes
Or therapy.

Those Sosua trips ruin you for local hoes.

Facts, lol. 💯😆

That’s why I advise against young boys getting into the game too early. The game changes you, it f--ks with your mental and your entire outlook on relationships & dating. If you’re not grounded before you get into the game, that shit will ruin you.

Maybe it's a question for another thread, but at what age is too young for getting into the game? Of course, It depends on the person, but I think starting at about 35 is a nice, sweet spot. At that age younger women without major baggage is nearly impossible to attain in US unless you're a rockstar. You should have a decent career and know how women "think" through trial and error and should have acquired some skills. You also should be in decent enough shape to not need performance enhanemen.t IMO I agree this will totally mess up you psyche..

Imo if you plan on not settling down at all then monger, but if you’re in your 30’s … focus on acquiring a life partner, hoes will ALWAYS be available to play.

Imo 35-40 is a good age to start if one is situated at home.

I started at 33 but married etc

It’s funny, I started on my bachelor party trip there unbeknownst to me

How do you combine family responsibility with mongering? Leaving the wife behind on trips, etc??

[justin_credible]

Travelguy, I had no idea dating was that expensive now. I stopped because attractive women, even 10 yrs. younger than me were hard to find, I was in much better shape at 55 than I was at 35(dad bod). That's when I found Cuba Dave, have enjoyed the last 13 years since then, have enough bank for 13 more, jajajajaj, god willing.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/01/lifestyle/how-much-should-you-spend-on-a-date-heres-what-the-research-says/amp/

The average date of you google it says $128 is about a date night, chicks say $170 is fair, dudes be assume $220, and they average person going of 6 dates and spending about $3000 a year dating out? Them numbers suck when you think of what you might have sitting across from you two, back teeth, a pudge gut forming, you do but don’t like her body, she lives too far for practical visits considering your current financial situation as you have money but want to pay off debt not splurge chasing pussy.

You can literally go to mongering internationally 7 times a year for how we long with $200 trips tickets and have another $1600 left over if you cut out domestic dating. I think a lot of people underestimate younger guy’s ability to do math because of the loudmouth attention seekers.

Pessimism or living in the real world of bills instead of how others judge your outlook is a thing. Some dudes just don’t want to waste $3000 or possibly more annually on options they settling for because people saying get your game up like the numbers won’t be 600$ even if you go on $50 dates and still get no Ass because you like fines and it comes with the territory the better the chick looks. So now you doing the math saying $100-200 chasing a dime, she not a trick but still gonna run my pockets, I might have to get a soup, if she wants something $27+ to start with(that’s a chic in Latin America if you good at negotiating) or spending 30-120 on something you settling for just to hit something, you can trick domestically, or just say f--k it I’m going overseas. I been did that math and have a lot to show for it. If I wasted $3000 yearly dating without guarantee of Ass, and found out about tricking I’d think I been cheated. I was 26 mad at money decisions I made at 20 like buying a vip booth to skip a line to talk with a socialite just to show I could do it because I had the disposable income. I still get women in America but it’s not cheap at all, you spending $50 if you dating down and settling. Not expensive but shit adds up and you have bills so why waste money on something not guaranteed? Up to the individual to make the decision so I don’t judge

Your analytics are spot on, and we haven't even talked about marriage and its financial nightmares for most men involved. Dating is one step leading up to a POTENTIAL financial tsunami for many men.

[ToToMarauder]

sounds like he had a life changing experience with all them girls. He may need to talk to therapist  to get his mojo back

[HitandRun]

Age matters but i introduced my little brother when he was around 25, I started at 26. Honestly it’s cost benefits. 2-3 American dates is the cost of a plane ticket round trip. A month going out may run you over what an entire trip would be. Granted he stills gets girls living in a major city but he admits mongering is just more practical for the budget and he’s rather be abstinent while in America if chicks are requiring too much effort and time. If they throwing the box he definitely will catch it. He’d even date down from his normal standards but money is getting tight so he not trying to waste money on something not guaranteed when you rent goes from under $800 to over $1500 monthly due to moving but the income not being guaranteed like once before. He not prioritizing social media, just lay up with a novia who wants to get paid 1-2x and let him get unlimited access to the toto because she thinks he’s cute and enjoys his company. She don’t got to be a dime just above a 6.5, kind and not begging 24/7.

I do have a buddy who does the watching videos 24/7. I thought it was obsessive too but he had some really cool moment like “this your bitch, she negotiated in kreyol to suck dick, she don’t even know she’s on camera” shit had me laughing my ass off. He is not going back to the su anytime soon opting to monger elsewhere. Not sure if he’s still watching pudo(he actually knows the guy) or if he’s following other channels now.

at age 25 and 26 macking dudes don't pay for dates at that age.
bitches are just giving you pussy.
you don't travel for pussy at that age if you the shit.
interesting you would talk like a 50 year old dating.
at 26 for me F traveling for paying a plane ticket, hotel, p4p pussy.
pussy was coming to me.
young men don't travel for pussy.

[tugboaboat5393]

He need local hoes
Or therapy.

Those Sosua trips ruin you for local hoes.

Facts, lol. 💯😆

That’s why I advise against young boys getting into the game too early. The game changes you, it f--ks with your mental and your entire outlook on relationships & dating. If you’re not grounded before you get into the game, that shit will ruin you.

Maybe it's a question for another thread, but at what age is too young for getting into the game? Of course, It depends on the person, but I think starting at about 35 is a nice, sweet spot. At that age younger women without major baggage is nearly impossible to attain in US unless you're a rockstar. You should have a decent career and know how women "think" through trial and error and should have acquired some skills. You also should be in decent enough shape to not need performance enhanemen.t IMO I agree this will totally mess up you psyche..

Barring any medical conditions you should be abel to f--k till your early 60s with out blue pills and if you do need assistance by all means take the blue pills  Check with your Doctor,Funny i know one monger who stays in sossua for 5 months a year,  this old timers 74,   he had the semi ridget implant , banging 2 or 3 chicas a day  go gettem !

[tugboaboat5393]

He need local hoes
Or therapy.

Those Sosua trips ruin you for local hoes.

Facts, lol. 💯😆

That’s why I advise against young boys getting into the game too early. The game changes you, it f--ks with your mental and your entire outlook on relationships & dating. If you’re not grounded before you get into the game, that shit will ruin you.

I advise the same

He need local hoes
Or therapy.

Those Sosua trips ruin you for local hoes.

Facts, lol. 💯😆

That’s why I advise against young boys getting into the game too early. The game changes you, it f--ks with your mental and your entire outlook on relationships & dating. If you’re not grounded before you get into the game, that shit will ruin you.

Maybe it's a question for another thread, but at what age is too young for getting into the game? Of course, It depends on the person, but I think starting at about 35 is a nice, sweet spot. At that age younger women without major baggage is nearly impossible to attain in US unless you're a rockstar. You should have a decent career and know how women "think" through trial and error and should have acquired some skills. You also should be in decent enough shape to not need performance enhanemen.t IMO I agree this will totally mess up you psyche..

Imo if you plan on not settling down at all then monger, but if you’re in your 30’s … focus on acquiring a life partner, hoes will ALWAYS be available to play.

Imo 35-40 is a good age to start if one is situated at home.

I started at 33 but married etc

It’s funny, I started on my bachelor party trip there unbeknownst to me

How do you combine family responsibility with mongering? Leaving the wife behind on trips, etc??

An open relastion ship, Your finacaily in good shape meaning a dood job with plenty of off time to sneak down for  a few days of debauchery !

[Travelguy90]

Age matters but i introduced my little brother when he was around 25, I started at 26. Honestly it’s cost benefits. 2-3 American dates is the cost of a plane ticket round trip. A month going out may run you over what an entire trip would be. Granted he stills gets girls living in a major city but he admits mongering is just more practical for the budget and he’s rather be abstinent while in America if chicks are requiring too much effort and time. If they throwing the box he definitely will catch it. He’d even date down from his normal standards but money is getting tight so he not trying to waste money on something not guaranteed when you rent goes from under $800 to over $1500 monthly due to moving but the income not being guaranteed like once before. He not prioritizing social media, just lay up with a novia who wants to get paid 1-2x and let him get unlimited access to the toto because she thinks he’s cute and enjoys his company. She don’t got to be a dime just above a 6.5, kind and not begging 24/7.

I do have a buddy who does the watching videos 24/7. I thought it was obsessive too but he had some really cool moment like “this your bitch, she negotiated in kreyol to suck dick, she don’t even know she’s on camera” shit had me laughing my ass off. He is not going back to the su anytime soon opting to monger elsewhere. Not sure if he’s still watching pudo(he actually knows the guy) or if he’s following other channels now.

at age 25 and 26 macking dudes don't pay for dates at that age.
bitches are just giving you pussy.
you don't travel for pussy at that age if you the shit.
interesting you would talk like a 50 year old dating.
at 26 for me F traveling for paying a plane ticket, hotel, p4p pussy.
pussy was coming to me.
young men don't travel for pussy.

New generation, you got to get with the times. Try pulling an attractive woman in Tampa, Miami, Atl or California and your competition is football players in college and the league, drug dealers, basketball, baseball, soccer, rich people in feneral, crypto Simps, etc… and I’m talking about a quality chic not a random thot. Obviously you can go to a bar and find someone ra through, but I’m talking about a legit 9-10 with low mileage. That’s gonna run your pockets dating alone. A movie ticket is 15-24$ a person depending on the city. I spent 18-28 in college between undergraduate and graduate school. I was in college before IG/Twitter and it was great. 2012-14 social media took off and chics got absorbed into smartphones and got shorter attention spans. Then 2016 came and dudes started blowing excessive amounts of cash to pander to females. I seen my competition and clout change women for the worse. It’s also the time is money aspect, yeah you could smash a chic but what’s the effort and time you putting in?

I mentioned you could obviously settle, but then you unhappy with what you’re getting. If you making money selling insurance or are a car salesman’s time is money. If you a stock or day trader time is money. You not trying to waste time chasing ass because you have to make money to pay bills in an expensive city because that’s your best bet to find clients. I’m speaking from a position of younger guys with 5-20k in debt, before accounting for student loans that want at least 250-500$ a month. You only have so much time to spend chasing women, and if it’s the quality you settling for instead of actually want, eventually you gonna figure it’s a bad deal.

And you would travel for pussy if you the shit if you step back and think “the best chic in the city is really a gassed up 8-8.5, who after all is said and done is gonna cost $60 for entrance to event, 20-50$ on weed/drink for pregame and at the place, 10-20$ for parking, etc” then you catch the same quality or better overseas guaranteed for less money. That’s why you have dudes popping up to Sosua thinking they’ll get a freebie cuz they dress well(ignorance of thinking swag/charisma gonna get them a freebie) it’s honestly what you end up wanting.

I’m in Brazil right now. Legit left bogota, and heading to Medellin next. February to April 3 different trips, all cost under $650 total in flights. Tell me wtf would I be in America chasing ass at an inflated price? I’m young enough to get 19 year olds for free in America, but after hitting 2xs for free they are a time and financial burden so you drop them. At 24 they give sex for free but start wanting to not take plan B pills, 30 and up they start asking “what are we, we’re dating!” after 2 weeks. I don’t go 35 and up unless I meet you at a bar and it’s gonna be a one night stand. I already told you me and my brother rationale is money based, we living in a world with bills. You gonna pay our bills while we Mack instead of working because we want to please others or prove something. I’ll be lame with these bills paid, then a fly guy with debt and hoes. I did that before in my early 20s and have nothing to show for it except pictures and memories. In 2011 instead of dropping bread to go to clubs and events I could have bought bitcoin when it was .25cent to $36 a share. I don’t want to be cool or Casanova, I want financial stability and women are a drain in the pockets.

Don’t get me started about NYC and dating. I can get free pussy there and jersey but then I have to hear loud chics with no inside voice, about boss bitches, networking and other shit I could care less about just for 15-60 minutes of fun. Shit be miserable but I get free pussy so there’s a trade off somewhere. The bad bitches be in Manhattan clubs that ain’t cheap to get in but the women do look nice

[Travelguy90]

Travelguy, I had no idea dating was that expensive now. I stopped because attractive women, even 10 yrs. younger than me were hard to find, I was in much better shape at 55 than I was at 35(dad bod). That's when I found Cuba Dave, have enjoyed the last 13 years since then, have enough bank for 13 more, jajajajaj, god willing.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/01/lifestyle/how-much-should-you-spend-on-a-date-heres-what-the-research-says/amp/

The average date of you google it says $128 is about a date night, chicks say $170 is fair, dudes be assume $220, and they average person going of 6 dates and spending about $3000 a year dating out? Them numbers suck when you think of what you might have sitting across from you two, back teeth, a pudge gut forming, you do but don’t like her body, she lives too far for practical visits considering your current financial situation as you have money but want to pay off debt not splurge chasing pussy.

You can literally go to mongering internationally 7 times a year for how we long with $200 trips tickets and have another $1600 left over if you cut out domestic dating. I think a lot of people underestimate younger guy’s ability to do math because of the loudmouth attention seekers.

Pessimism or living in the real world of bills instead of how others judge your outlook is a thing. Some dudes just don’t want to waste $3000 or possibly more annually on options they settling for because people saying get your game up like the numbers won’t be 600$ even if you go on $50 dates and still get no Ass because you like fines and it comes with the territory the better the chick looks. So now you doing the math saying $100-200 chasing a dime, she not a trick but still gonna run my pockets, I might have to get a soup, if she wants something $27+ to start with(that’s a chic in Latin America if you good at negotiating) or spending 30-120 on something you settling for just to hit something, you can trick domestically, or just say f--k it I’m going overseas. I been did that math and have a lot to show for it. If I wasted $3000 yearly dating without guarantee of Ass, and found out about tricking I’d think I been cheated. I was 26 mad at money decisions I made at 20 like buying a vip booth to skip a line to talk with a socialite just to show I could do it because I had the disposable income. I still get women in America but it’s not cheap at all, you spending $50 if you dating down and settling. Not expensive but shit adds up and you have bills so why waste money on something not guaranteed? Up to the individual to make the decision so I don’t judge

Your analytics are spot on, and we haven't even talked about marriage and its financial nightmares for most men involved. Dating is one step leading up to a POTENTIAL financial tsunami for many men.

Marriage I have no experience with, however it does have benefits if you have the right partner. My experience is I date up not down because my resume looks good. I have a graduate degree, no kids, home owner, no major debt outside student loans, no DV or sex charges as a criminal record, good credit about a 750, and own my vehicle outright. I have a motorcycle to take women out on rides, and my parents are together for over 35 years so it’s not crazy red flags.

 So I chase women who have graduate degrees, no kids, and make 6 figures or better with credit scores of 810 or better. It allows us to get joint accounts, boost each others credit with trade lines, im financial savvy so women trust me to be the planer and do research and get us the best deals. And I only get with women who compromise like we can leave San Jose to Jaco to Puntanerias via bus totaling 15-20$ a person instead of a taxi that’s 100$ or higher each city and Uber can cost Uber to 200-300 from puntanerias to Jaco. My women have to be capable of just getting a 30$ hotel, staying the night in a city and we catch a bus in the morning. We can go to Europe for 2 weeks for under 2500 total including the flight, while some would want to go peak time where it’s 1200-1500 a person making flights alone be 2400-3000+.

The right partner who has a good temperament and money will make me happy to spend my life with. I’m fine being stable with a 6.5-7 with a great body, than a 9-10 who’s gonna be making me miserable, may eventually cheat, and leave me worse off not better. I like women who like me more than I like them, so I have an easy life. Some guys want to put in crazy effort or have different priorities. I’m trying to have my marriage last, and I’m happy.

[TheRealDallas]

Travelguy, I had no idea dating was that expensive now. I stopped because attractive women, even 10 yrs. younger than me were hard to find, I was in much better shape at 55 than I was at 35(dad bod). That's when I found Cuba Dave, have enjoyed the last 13 years since then, have enough bank for 13 more, jajajajaj, god willing.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/01/lifestyle/how-much-should-you-spend-on-a-date-heres-what-the-research-says/amp/

The average date of you google it says $128 is about a date night, chicks say $170 is fair, dudes be assume $220, and they average person going of 6 dates and spending about $3000 a year dating out? Them numbers suck when you think of what you might have sitting across from you two, back teeth, a pudge gut forming, you do but don’t like her body, she lives too far for practical visits considering your current financial situation as you have money but want to pay off debt not splurge chasing pussy.

You can literally go to mongering internationally 7 times a year for how we long with $200 trips tickets and have another $1600 left over if you cut out domestic dating. I think a lot of people underestimate younger guy’s ability to do math because of the loudmouth attention seekers.

Pessimism or living in the real world of bills instead of how others judge your outlook is a thing. Some dudes just don’t want to waste $3000 or possibly more annually on options they settling for because people saying get your game up like the numbers won’t be 600$ even if you go on $50 dates and still get no Ass because you like fines and it comes with the territory the better the chick looks. So now you doing the math saying $100-200 chasing a dime, she not a trick but still gonna run my pockets, I might have to get a soup, if she wants something $27+ to start with(that’s a chic in Latin America if you good at negotiating) or spending 30-120 on something you settling for just to hit something, you can trick domestically, or just say f--k it I’m going overseas. I been did that math and have a lot to show for it. If I wasted $3000 yearly dating without guarantee of Ass, and found out about tricking I’d think I been cheated. I was 26 mad at money decisions I made at 20 like buying a vip booth to skip a line to talk with a socialite just to show I could do it because I had the disposable income. I still get women in America but it’s not cheap at all, you spending $50 if you dating down and settling. Not expensive but shit adds up and you have bills so why waste money on something not guaranteed? Up to the individual to make the decision so I don’t judge

Your analytics are spot on, and we haven't even talked about marriage and its financial nightmares for most men involved. Dating is one step leading up to a POTENTIAL financial tsunami for many men.

Marriage I have no experience with, however it does have benefits if you have the right partner. My experience is I date up not down because my resume looks good. I have a graduate degree, no kids, home owner, no major debt outside student loans, no DV or sex charges as a criminal record, good credit about a 750, and own my vehicle outright. I have a motorcycle to take women out on rides, and my parents are together for over 35 years so it’s not crazy red flags.

 So I chase women who have graduate degrees, no kids, and make 6 figures or better with credit scores of 810 or better. It allows us to get joint accounts, boost each others credit with trade lines, im financial savvy so women trust me to be the planer and do research and get us the best deals. And I only get with women who compromise like we can leave San Jose to Jaco to Puntanerias via bus totaling 15-20$ a person instead of a taxi that’s 100$ or higher each city and Uber can cost Uber to 200-300 from puntanerias to Jaco. My women have to be capable of just getting a 30$ hotel, staying the night in a city and we catch a bus in the morning. We can go to Europe for 2 weeks for under 2500 total including the flight, while some would want to go peak time where it’s 1200-1500 a person making flights alone be 2400-3000+.

The right partner who has a good temperament and money will make me happy to spend my life with. I’m fine being stable with a 6.5-7 with a great body, than a 9-10 who’s gonna be making me miserable, may eventually cheat, and leave me worse off not better. I like women who like me more than I like them, so I have an easy life. Some guys want to put in crazy effort or have different priorities. I’m trying to have my marriage last, and I’m happy.

This man is spot on, I’m married 10 great years with 40 more to go 🙏🏾 God willin.

Most men who oppose marriage vehemently was either fatherless or had bad irresponsible parents

I chose the right partner (a strong 7.3), like he said, in dating You have to choose the girl that’s crazy about you, not the other way around this is where most men have it f--ked up.  Men are the adorers women are the adorees. When this dynamic isn’t met, that’s what breeds the bullshit, financial arguments and dilemmas, masculinity in women etc.

I used adorer and adoree to make an employer employee correlation, these hoes in society will seldomly treat thier employers how they treat their boyfriends etc

When you have a great job, great benefits, plan and great pay you don’t wanna f--k this up, smart women use same philosophy, and most times they aren’t 8-9’s